I don't think my situation is unique (having a family) in saying that the pre-reg only deal is a little baffling to me.. this race is a prime example for me at least of one that I wanted to do, but the variables of kids parties, wife's plans, work schedule can all come together or fall apart to make for a great race weekend or another weekend squeaking in time on the bike while navigating 3 yr old birthday parties and wife's yoga classes.. Yes, this is a first world problem but I wonder if there is a better way ... making both the race organizer happy and secure and the family guy able to give said organizer their money and get to race on a moments notice?
Appreciate your diplomatic tone but have you considered Golf? Being a race organizer is russian roulette... Anytime I see a potential RR on the calendar I jump for joy and am willing to jump through an extra hoop or two as well. Appreciate your sentiments as I am in the same exact boat as you and I suggest when you feel frustrated, you just gotta say a big waaaaaaa :-) It'll make you feel better!
So you are saying your whole life is done at a moments notice?!?!
Pre-reg closes 36+/- hours before a race.
The race schedule is out months before events.
I am sure you know when you work well before "the last minute".
Birthday parties are scheduled well in advance of a weekend.
Yoga classes are scheduled months in advance. (sounds like your wife's plans are more important than yours) You can get a yoga class anytime, anywhere practically.
Excellent race, tons of fun, huge thank you to the organizers!
Quick note on safetly: Someone's team car very nearly t-boned our group in the 35+ 3 race. We went to turn right onto the gravel and the car behind continued straight and would have plowed into us had we not heard the screaming spectators and hit our brakes. The car was a (Audi, VW?) wagon with two bikes on the roof and the words "Service Course" in large letters across the rear window. It is one thing for locals to have trouble driving around races, but there is no excuse for a team car doesn't give a race enough room to take the turn safely. Why didn't the corner marshal or police flag the car to stop? We were baffled and upset. Stay safe out there on the bikes and in the cars.
Stephen, thanks for the heads up on the near incident in your race. I'll check into it. We only had two official support cars driving during each wave, along with a State Patrol car and two EMT vehicles. The description of the car doesn't fit any of the vehicles we had out there that I know of but I'll make sure. Also not sure why the course marshals missed it, all the reports I heard about the marshals indicated that they were doing a good job.
Thanks Eric. The marshals did do a great job everywhere else. The race was very well run and this definitely isn't a complaint against the organization. I'm sure it was a fluke, but a scary one.
First, Rally Sport and Cycling Events - thanks for putting on a great race. Hope to see this one on the calendar for years to come! This next comment has nothing to do with the promoters... In the 45+ 1,2,3's there were many blatant yellow line infractions and yet no one was DQ'd. The Chief Referee even stated at the start the yellow line rule would be enforced. Would hate to lose good road races like this just because some guys feel like they can ride over the line.
In the P-1/2 race, I heard one guy say that he got beeped at by the moto ref for just looking at the yellow line and we had several instances of "back to the back you go" for guys that were crossing the line and not even advancing in many cases. That being said, I think there is a lot of inconsistency when it comes to the enforcement of this particular rule, something USAC/BRAC should tighten up.
Agree that this race and course rocked! Decent sized fields for April and serious competition. Thanks for a great day Eric, Steve, et al.
I say DQ all centerline violations. Centerline rule is all about safety. Why would anyone want to be close to the centerline? On coming traffic will kill you. The gust of air by bigger vehicles can cause a bike to crash much less being smacked by a mirror or a head on.
Any good referee should DQ a rider immediately and send them packing. I would hate to be involved in any "incident" where a rider was injured. Talk about big lawsuit against an official that saw these violations and did not take care of the problem.
I completely agree with all of your comments on center line violations. I can never understand why anyone would take the risk of literally dying to move up a few spots in the pack. Not to mention the risk of crashing out other riders.
I was in the 45+1/2/3 race (at least for just over a lap) and myself and most others in the pack saw a blatant center line violation by the rider who would go on to cross the line first at the finish. I notified the moto official at that time, gave the number of the rider and hoped he would be DQ'ed. But he wasn't. That rider then went on to violate the center line rule again within the last km of the race. This second violation shouldn't have happened because he should have been DQ'ed the first time. The fact that he did it again just proves the zero tolerance policy is the only way to go since if somebody does it once and they aren't punished they're highly likely to do it again.
When I saw the results of the 45+1/2/3 race with this rider listed in first place and heard from other riders that he had violated the center line rule again near the finish I immediately protested the result. The problem was that somehow no official saw the violation in the last km. Only the racers did. And this rider tried to get away with it. Fortunately the chief referee took the rider's accounts into consideration and relegated the rider to fifth place. That rider won't be racing in any event I promote in the future.
The moto officials do seem to be inconsistent with enforcement and that needs to change if we're going to keep any road races in this area. I'll be sending some comments to BRAC regarding this.
Thanks again for all your positive comments about the race.
The moto ref in the P12 race whistled anytime he saw anyone "touch" the yellow line and ruined a lot of the race by shutting down numerous attacks (where riders did not attack "over the line"). He shut down the entire break even if only one rider "violated." All this while the moto was WAY OVER IN THE OTHER LANE. How is that about safety?
We as riders are well aware of the risks, and no one is trying to race in the wrong lane. If the pack bulges out due to a slowing or road condition, a rider on the left can be "forced" over the yellow line. Even when the rider didn't advance, and got over as quick as possible, the moto would come up and whistle obnoxiously every friggen time.
Moto ref's need to understand the principles of bike racing and the principle of the yellow line rule. If someone gutters it on the left or attacks over the yellow line: DQ. If it's an accidentally "touch" or the rider is not advancing/attacking, then take a chill pill and let the race continue.
2) It's possible to thank someone for doing their job, but also feel they could be doing something better.
Like If a corner marshal (yes, a volunteer) let a car through into the bike race, you'd say "thanks for volunteering, but next time stop the cars."
We are all grateful to have a RR, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the race. Better racing is better for the racers, promoters, and, ultimately the officials.
This is a particular problem on a course, such as Weld and especially the upcoming Deer Trail, which are run on narrow country roads and not necessarily difficult enough to be selective in and of their own.
Often in these cases the race IS the battle for position, where you need to burn matches on the harder parts of the course (dirt, hills, wind) getting to and staying at the front in order to have any chance in the final by not getting completely boxed in.
Obviously it is wildly unsporting for a rider or riders to sit in the middle all race, saving energy, to then overcome THE major tactical hurdle of a bunch finish by illegally moving up across the line and essentially punking all the guys who followed the rule.
Hopefully the moto officials, now well aware of the problem, will be on sharp lookout Sunday!
you can't wait until the race is over to stick the puppy's nose in the centerline 'pee puddle'. For the centerline rule to have any meaning at all, and for a DQ to have maximum impact, the moto ref should pull alongside the pack, call out the guilty party, and DQ them on the spot. Not send them to the back of the field. Take them out of the race completely. The offender should ride back to the finish alone, with no further affect on the race. I guarantee you that after one or two public shamings, with the threat of future public shaming, centerline violations will cease.
Technically speaking, when your wheels are close or on the center line, you have broken the rule, 3B1. You have broken the center line vertical plane with half your bicycle and body.
Everyone has been warned from day one of bike racing. Every flyer has the rule on it.
Just the regular rules of the road and common sense tell you that being left of center is wrong.
3B1. Center Line. If a course is not closed to traffic, all competitors must keep to the right of the center line or enforcement line.
3B2. Rules of the Road. Riders shall, of their own responsibility, conform to all traffic regulations in force in the area where the race is held.
How do they get better at road racing without road racing?? There is a learning curve, glad they are out there giving it a go, this kind of arrogance does not promote or help people trying to get into road racing, shame on you.
Really enjoyed this new early season RR. Nice course and great idea to neutralize the dirt section at the very start of the race...still saw water bottles flying out of cages (SM4 race).
Thanks to everyone who helped organize and make this race happen!
Anyone know how the rider who cart wheeled into the guard rail is doing? I hope that crash looked worse than it really was.
Not in the 55+, granted this was my second road race, the red/white team from Boulder blasted down that dirt road, long single file line, I was not the only one going as hard as I could go! I asked some guys after the race if that was neutral, they laughed, said they were ready for it, if those guys are up front get ready, neutral my ass! Glad your race had a neutral start, next time I know.
It wasn't really neutral in the 45+1/2/3 either. We were strung out at race pace and one rider even got a gap and passed the moto official at one point. We must have made up a minute or more on the cat 3 group ahead of us by the end of the dirt road. I've sent comments to BRAC regarding the uneven moto officiating in the neutral zone. Assuming we use that course again we'll make sure the neutral start is actually neutral.
In the +3 race it was a fast tempo through the gravel the first time. Each time we went through the dirt a bit of peloton panic seemed to hit and people started mashing by default. I think in many past races the moto has typically ridden in front to pace the neutral portion of the course and this keeps riders from gunning it. In the race on Saturday the moto stayed in back so the jumpiest rider set the pace instead. It made for a somewhat non-neutral neutral. Still a great race.
Race Communique for Weld County RR
Mon, 2013-04-22
Rider discipline:
SM 5 #434 Disqualified for advancing on left of center line inside 1 km to finish. Witnessed by motor referee and chief referee.
SM 45 1,2,3 #730 Relegated from 1st to 5th. Race jury decision after several riders complained of advancement inside last km left of center. Second offense.
SM 45,4 #354 DQ. sprinting and crossing finish line left of center. Witnessed by chief referee and documented on photo finish.
I'd like any feedback folks who did the race have on the finish line. Good, bad? I put it at the top of the only real hill on the course and tried to keep it close to the school. One thing I was counting on was some wind to break up the packs. It's always windy out there but it wasn't last weekend.
Finish line was in a pretty good spot, maybe just too close to the hill. With normal wind coming from the west, this will push the sprint to the right, so no temptation to cross the yellow. If you moved it a little farther after the hill, it could be more fun with small group sprinting tactics playing a role more than the hill. On the other hand, you could have it right at the top of the hill so that the finish becomes a sprint up the hill. It was just sort of in an awkward spot.
I really liked where it was. Some people sprinted the hill and tried to hold off the charging pack, some people sat in and jumped late if they had anything left. The distance of the finish from the hill made for an interesting bit of strategy. Kudos on placement.
where the finish was located, perfect, attack on the hill if you are not a pure sprinter, sprinters had to work hard to stay there, geez, could it get any better??
39 Comments
prereg...?
Submitted by derkahn (not verified) on
I don't think my situation is unique (having a family) in saying that the pre-reg only deal is a little baffling to me.. this race is a prime example for me at least of one that I wanted to do, but the variables of kids parties, wife's plans, work schedule can all come together or fall apart to make for a great race weekend or another weekend squeaking in time on the bike while navigating 3 yr old birthday parties and wife's yoga classes.. Yes, this is a first world problem but I wonder if there is a better way ... making both the race organizer happy and secure and the family guy able to give said organizer their money and get to race on a moments notice?
Points: -2
Appreciate your diplomatic
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Appreciate your diplomatic tone but have you considered Golf? Being a race organizer is russian roulette... Anytime I see a potential RR on the calendar I jump for joy and am willing to jump through an extra hoop or two as well. Appreciate your sentiments as I am in the same exact boat as you and I suggest when you feel frustrated, you just gotta say a big waaaaaaa :-) It'll make you feel better!
Points: -1
So you are saying your whole
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
So you are saying your whole life is done at a moments notice?!?!
Pre-reg closes 36+/- hours before a race.
The race schedule is out months before events.
I am sure you know when you work well before "the last minute".
Birthday parties are scheduled well in advance of a weekend.
Yoga classes are scheduled months in advance. (sounds like your wife's plans are more important than yours) You can get a yoga class anytime, anywhere practically.
Points: 0
Nice new course...
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Great addition to the spring calendar. Thanks Rally Sport and CyclingEvents, much better course than Mead. I'll be back next year.
Points: 12
Thanks
Submitted by Eric (not verified) on
I was the promoter and I appreciate your comments and glad you liked the new course. Hopefully we can bring it back bigger and better next year.
Points: 9
P12 photos...
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
P12 photos...
Zirbel attacks. Cows uninterested.
Points: 0
Chase cars
Submitted by Stephen Fitzgerald (not verified) on
Excellent race, tons of fun, huge thank you to the organizers!
Quick note on safetly: Someone's team car very nearly t-boned our group in the 35+ 3 race. We went to turn right onto the gravel and the car behind continued straight and would have plowed into us had we not heard the screaming spectators and hit our brakes. The car was a (Audi, VW?) wagon with two bikes on the roof and the words "Service Course" in large letters across the rear window. It is one thing for locals to have trouble driving around races, but there is no excuse for a team car doesn't give a race enough room to take the turn safely. Why didn't the corner marshal or police flag the car to stop? We were baffled and upset. Stay safe out there on the bikes and in the cars.
Points: 3
Chase car
Submitted by Eric (not verified) on
Stephen, thanks for the heads up on the near incident in your race. I'll check into it. We only had two official support cars driving during each wave, along with a State Patrol car and two EMT vehicles. The description of the car doesn't fit any of the vehicles we had out there that I know of but I'll make sure. Also not sure why the course marshals missed it, all the reports I heard about the marshals indicated that they were doing a good job.
Glad you liked the race.
Points: 1
Thanks Eric. The marshals did
Submitted by Stephen Fitzgerald (not verified) on
Thanks Eric. The marshals did do a great job everywhere else. The race was very well run and this definitely isn't a complaint against the organization. I'm sure it was a fluke, but a scary one.
Points: 2
Yellow Line
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
First, Rally Sport and Cycling Events - thanks for putting on a great race. Hope to see this one on the calendar for years to come! This next comment has nothing to do with the promoters... In the 45+ 1,2,3's there were many blatant yellow line infractions and yet no one was DQ'd. The Chief Referee even stated at the start the yellow line rule would be enforced. Would hate to lose good road races like this just because some guys feel like they can ride over the line.
Points: 1
Moto Refs Inconsistent
Submitted by Beep Beep (not verified) on
In the P-1/2 race, I heard one guy say that he got beeped at by the moto ref for just looking at the yellow line and we had several instances of "back to the back you go" for guys that were crossing the line and not even advancing in many cases. That being said, I think there is a lot of inconsistency when it comes to the enforcement of this particular rule, something USAC/BRAC should tighten up.
Agree that this race and course rocked! Decent sized fields for April and serious competition. Thanks for a great day Eric, Steve, et al.
Points: 1
DQ all centerline violations
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
I say DQ all centerline violations. Centerline rule is all about safety. Why would anyone want to be close to the centerline? On coming traffic will kill you. The gust of air by bigger vehicles can cause a bike to crash much less being smacked by a mirror or a head on.
Any good referee should DQ a rider immediately and send them packing. I would hate to be involved in any "incident" where a rider was injured. Talk about big lawsuit against an official that saw these violations and did not take care of the problem.
Points: 1
Center Line
Submitted by Eric (not verified) on
I completely agree with all of your comments on center line violations. I can never understand why anyone would take the risk of literally dying to move up a few spots in the pack. Not to mention the risk of crashing out other riders.
I was in the 45+1/2/3 race (at least for just over a lap) and myself and most others in the pack saw a blatant center line violation by the rider who would go on to cross the line first at the finish. I notified the moto official at that time, gave the number of the rider and hoped he would be DQ'ed. But he wasn't. That rider then went on to violate the center line rule again within the last km of the race. This second violation shouldn't have happened because he should have been DQ'ed the first time. The fact that he did it again just proves the zero tolerance policy is the only way to go since if somebody does it once and they aren't punished they're highly likely to do it again.
When I saw the results of the 45+1/2/3 race with this rider listed in first place and heard from other riders that he had violated the center line rule again near the finish I immediately protested the result. The problem was that somehow no official saw the violation in the last km. Only the racers did. And this rider tried to get away with it. Fortunately the chief referee took the rider's accounts into consideration and relegated the rider to fifth place. That rider won't be racing in any event I promote in the future.
The moto officials do seem to be inconsistent with enforcement and that needs to change if we're going to keep any road races in this area. I'll be sending some comments to BRAC regarding this.
Thanks again for all your positive comments about the race.
Points: 4
Wow, that rider should have known or did they care
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Wow, wasn't there, didn't see it but after reading this comment above (and since the commenter pretty much said who it was) I had to check out the results. Wow! http://www.coloradocycling.org/results/road#year=2013&eventId=1254&resul...
Sucks he violated but awesome to see him racing!
Points: -1
At least it was not the other
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
At least it was not the other cheating jerk racing in the 45+1,2,3. Better yet in looking at the results he did not factor at all.
Points: -1
Chill out. There's a
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Chill out. There's a difference between racing on the wrong side of the line and being nudged over for a second or two.
Points: 0
Yellow line rule is often
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Yellow line rule is often waived in a bunch sprint. Not sure about this race, but I know oncoming traffic was stopped before the finish line.
Good job promoters and rally sport on this race.
Points: 1
It was not waived. The head
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
It was not waived. The head referee made it very clear, at least our field, that the yellow line was in force at the finish.
Points: 1
The moto ref in the P12 race
Submitted by right side rider (not verified) on
The moto ref in the P12 race whistled anytime he saw anyone "touch" the yellow line and ruined a lot of the race by shutting down numerous attacks (where riders did not attack "over the line"). He shut down the entire break even if only one rider "violated." All this while the moto was WAY OVER IN THE OTHER LANE. How is that about safety?
We as riders are well aware of the risks, and no one is trying to race in the wrong lane. If the pack bulges out due to a slowing or road condition, a rider on the left can be "forced" over the yellow line. Even when the rider didn't advance, and got over as quick as possible, the moto would come up and whistle obnoxiously every friggen time.
Moto ref's need to understand the principles of bike racing and the principle of the yellow line rule. If someone gutters it on the left or attacks over the yellow line: DQ. If it's an accidentally "touch" or the rider is not advancing/attacking, then take a chill pill and let the race continue.
Points: 0
Keep complaining folks,
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Keep complaining folks, pretty soon we will have no road races. You should be thanking the volunteers.
Points: 0
You miss the point.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
You miss the point.
1) Officials aren't volunteers.
2) It's possible to thank someone for doing their job, but also feel they could be doing something better.
Like If a corner marshal (yes, a volunteer) let a car through into the bike race, you'd say "thanks for volunteering, but next time stop the cars."
We are all grateful to have a RR, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the race. Better racing is better for the racers, promoters, and, ultimately the officials.
Points: 1
This is a particular problem
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
This is a particular problem on a course, such as Weld and especially the upcoming Deer Trail, which are run on narrow country roads and not necessarily difficult enough to be selective in and of their own.
Often in these cases the race IS the battle for position, where you need to burn matches on the harder parts of the course (dirt, hills, wind) getting to and staying at the front in order to have any chance in the final by not getting completely boxed in.
Obviously it is wildly unsporting for a rider or riders to sit in the middle all race, saving energy, to then overcome THE major tactical hurdle of a bunch finish by illegally moving up across the line and essentially punking all the guys who followed the rule.
Hopefully the moto officials, now well aware of the problem, will be on sharp lookout Sunday!
Points: 2
Like training a puppy
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
you can't wait until the race is over to stick the puppy's nose in the centerline 'pee puddle'. For the centerline rule to have any meaning at all, and for a DQ to have maximum impact, the moto ref should pull alongside the pack, call out the guilty party, and DQ them on the spot. Not send them to the back of the field. Take them out of the race completely. The offender should ride back to the finish alone, with no further affect on the race. I guarantee you that after one or two public shamings, with the threat of future public shaming, centerline violations will cease.
Points: 1
That is suppose to be what
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
That is suppose to be what happens.
Points: -1
Technically Speaking
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Technically speaking, when your wheels are close or on the center line, you have broken the rule, 3B1. You have broken the center line vertical plane with half your bicycle and body.
Everyone has been warned from day one of bike racing. Every flyer has the rule on it.
Just the regular rules of the road and common sense tell you that being left of center is wrong.
3B1. Center Line. If a course is not closed to traffic, all competitors must keep to the right of the center line or enforcement line.
3B2. Rules of the Road. Riders shall, of their own responsibility, conform to all traffic regulations in force in the area where the race is held.
Points: 2
Yellow Line Rule
Submitted by Andy Bohlmann (not verified) on
I have given expert opinions in depositions and in testimony at trials regarding deaths in which the center line rule came into play.
For that very reason, I do not organize road races except on closed courses.
Points: 0
A few riders need to stick to
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
A few riders need to stick to racing crits. They make themselves, their teammates and sponsors look like asses!
Points: 0
curious
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
How do they get better at road racing without road racing?? There is a learning curve, glad they are out there giving it a go, this kind of arrogance does not promote or help people trying to get into road racing, shame on you.
Points: -1
A Few Thoughts
Submitted by Jeff (not verified) on
Really enjoyed this new early season RR. Nice course and great idea to neutralize the dirt section at the very start of the race...still saw water bottles flying out of cages (SM4 race).
Thanks to everyone who helped organize and make this race happen!
Anyone know how the rider who cart wheeled into the guard rail is doing? I hope that crash looked worse than it really was.
Points: 1
Neutral start??
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Not in the 55+, granted this was my second road race, the red/white team from Boulder blasted down that dirt road, long single file line, I was not the only one going as hard as I could go! I asked some guys after the race if that was neutral, they laughed, said they were ready for it, if those guys are up front get ready, neutral my ass! Glad your race had a neutral start, next time I know.
Points: 0
Not neutral start
Submitted by Eric (not verified) on
It wasn't really neutral in the 45+1/2/3 either. We were strung out at race pace and one rider even got a gap and passed the moto official at one point. We must have made up a minute or more on the cat 3 group ahead of us by the end of the dirt road. I've sent comments to BRAC regarding the uneven moto officiating in the neutral zone. Assuming we use that course again we'll make sure the neutral start is actually neutral.
Points: 0
In the +3 race it was a fast
Submitted by Stephen Fitzgerald (not verified) on
In the +3 race it was a fast tempo through the gravel the first time. Each time we went through the dirt a bit of peloton panic seemed to hit and people started mashing by default. I think in many past races the moto has typically ridden in front to pace the neutral portion of the course and this keeps riders from gunning it. In the race on Saturday the moto stayed in back so the jumpiest rider set the pace instead. It made for a somewhat non-neutral neutral. Still a great race.
Points: 2
Official Response
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Race Communique for Weld County RR
Mon, 2013-04-22
Rider discipline:
SM 5 #434 Disqualified for advancing on left of center line inside 1 km to finish. Witnessed by motor referee and chief referee.
SM 45 1,2,3 #730 Relegated from 1st to 5th. Race jury decision after several riders complained of advancement inside last km left of center. Second offense.
SM 45,4 #354 DQ. sprinting and crossing finish line left of center. Witnessed by chief referee and documented on photo finish.
Points: 2
Finish Line Placement?
Submitted by Eric (not verified) on
I'd like any feedback folks who did the race have on the finish line. Good, bad? I put it at the top of the only real hill on the course and tried to keep it close to the school. One thing I was counting on was some wind to break up the packs. It's always windy out there but it wasn't last weekend.
Points: 3
Finish line was in a pretty
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Finish line was in a pretty good spot, maybe just too close to the hill. With normal wind coming from the west, this will push the sprint to the right, so no temptation to cross the yellow. If you moved it a little farther after the hill, it could be more fun with small group sprinting tactics playing a role more than the hill. On the other hand, you could have it right at the top of the hill so that the finish becomes a sprint up the hill. It was just sort of in an awkward spot.
Points: 0
I really liked where it was.
Submitted by Stephen Fitzgerald (not verified) on
I really liked where it was. Some people sprinted the hill and tried to hold off the charging pack, some people sat in and jumped late if they had anything left. The distance of the finish from the hill made for an interesting bit of strategy. Kudos on placement.
Points: 2
Finish should have been at
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Finish should have been at least 1k after the crest of the hill.
Points: 0
Loved
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
where the finish was located, perfect, attack on the hill if you are not a pure sprinter, sprinters had to work hard to stay there, geez, could it get any better??
Points: 1
Yes
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on
Yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYm2ECRk8R4
Points: 0
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