2013 - Cyclo X - Interlocken

Date: 

Saturday, November 9, 2013

event_type: 

81 Comments

That only works if you start

That only works if you start BEHIND the race. What is happening is that folks are on the course between races while the next race stages, and once the race starts it's only a matter of time before the leaders catch those folks warming up.

We should either do away with course preview all together or restrict it to one lap, you must start that lap behind the latter start group for any time slot, and you must maintain a pace sufficient to finish your lap before getting caught from behind.

One lap for recon, not warmup. Use a trainer or nearby roads to warm up. That way, no racer has to deal with a rider just warming up.

There is a policy in place.

There is a policy in place. Pre-riding is allowed any time the green flag is flying at the start/finish, and provided you do not interfere with the active racers. The green/red flag status is controlled by the officials. I was one of the folks pre-riding before the 45+/SS race. At one point, a number of us who were pre-riding were coming close to one of the SW35+/Open racers, so we pulled off to the side and gave some space. Not a few moments later, an official was yelling at us and telling us that we were "totally innapropriate" etc etc. He really made us out to be completely in the wrong. I immediately looked over toward the start finish to see the green flag flying. The official continued to berate people pre-riding who didnt appear to be anywhere near an active racer. Funny enough, he had a radio that he could have used to ask someone at the start/finish to change the flag. Racers have been told repeatedly by officials this year to adhere by their colored flags. Many of us did so, were conscious of active racers, and were still treated like we were scum of the earth by the official. I am frustrated with those that dont adhere by the rules, and especially those officials (and commenters here) that lump all of us together and treat us like scum.

You calling for DQ of offenders then?

A few riders are giving us all a bad name.

You don't have very thick skin do you? Being told to get off the course is far from being call scum.

Question: if the red flag goes up and you are half way through the lap are you going to get off the course? Doubt it.

About time an official is calling out the trouble makers. If you were collateral damage then you were to close to the trouble makers.

Just because the green flag is up doesn't mean that you get to be on the course in anyway you want.

How would you like the rule to be enforced? Light hand or heavy handed? How much are you going to complain about that?

Zero tolerance for meatheads

The officials need to draw a very clear line here. This is cyclocross, not MMA or hockey. It is a family sport in the US and if a racer is going to be ridiculous and swear, fight or otherwise behave like a meathead, that should be a season-long ban, no questions asked. The strange thing is that is the fastest groups (open, 35+) this does not seem to happen. Heat of battle is one thing, but with the exception of about 10 guys nation wide, this is for FUN. You can still be wicked fast and have fun, but part of being and adult is learning to control your emotions.

Easy, easy...

The OP was just pointing out that our race was 25% shorter than as advertised. I think that's a ligament complaint especially for someone like myself that drove 1:15 each way. I realize that we rarely race for the entire 40, 50 or 60min of a CX race but to have a race shortened by 1/4 is worthy of discussion. If the open race was cut by 1/4 and they only raced for 45min, people would be discussing it.

It gets hard to justify $30.00 and 5 hours of my day for 30min of racing.

The course was awesome and the race was well organized as usual. Thanks to the Without Limits crew of another great day out racing bikes.

Dan Porter
Single Speed

I did have a conversation

I did have a conversation with the ref after the race concerning this exact issue. It was polite, but I tried to accurately explain what I believe to be the big-picture issue here. I tried to highlight that the cost/value was being degraded with timing decisions like what happened on Saturday. Unfortunately he didnt really acknowledge that perspective, and held his ground on his decision to cut the race laps where he did. He told me that there were a lot of items that had to be taken care of between races and that he would not allow any race to run long. While I appreciate that there are scoring/timing tasks that have to be completed after each race, the cost/value issue should encourage all of us (racers/promoters/officials) to search for more effective ways to deliver quality race experiences. Hopefully each of us can keep that end goal in mind as we discuss this and future races.
Taylor Jung

Big Picture

I don't think you know the big picture. What about the guys in the back of the field of a two wave race that are starting with a 3min handy cap? That is effectively a lap down right from the start.

Taylor raced for 31:48 + the 3 min gap = 34:48 min (85% of scheduled race time). And you want another 8:14 lap = 43:03. Ok. What about the other 2/3 of the field? When does the official draw the line?

I want my race too. I can still get cup points and not start at the back the next race. I pass quite a few people in my last 10 min. Another rider said the same thing on here. "I don't want to get cut off right when I get going"

I want my value too. If I/we don't show up with our money then you don't get your 'quality experience". I liked the statement below that your race was "race was fair, clean, and safe". I bet that rings true for the whole day. Who do you think is growing the sport? The causal and beginning racer. So the admin does have to cater to us or run us off.

Bigger picture

Read through all the comments, especially the one that highlights the conversation between the promoter and race officials. The general consensus is that the officials can do better for everyone. Sounds like WOL is fighting for that 10min gap to be used to allow us back packers to finish on the posted last lap, while letting the front half racers get in a full race time. Who's growing the sport????? WE ALL ARE!

10 min or 20 min between races.

So is 20 minutes between races the answer? What race gets cut?

So you are basing your argument of an Eavesdropper that didn't put out a whole story? Eavesdropper = truth ??

If you want to move the discussion to time needed between races then go for it.

I guess I can use the eavesdropper data too.

So the 10 minutes between races is for admin stuff (results, callups, protests, bad riders). Stuff we have all complained about before.

What about all the mistakes with the women's race that day? They didn't know who was who till the end. Racers had to come by the Finish and tell them who was who.

I bet the was the promoter and race rite that caused that mix up. Wonder what the damage done was?

I was one of those women

I was one of those women racers and our results still came out faster than any non chip timed event so why the attitude? racers finishing their event in that 10min space has nothin to do with callups for the next race. Protests take place once results are posted. And bad riders can be spanked anytime during the day. Move on brotha

I bet that your results came

I bet that your results came out fast because they had the allotted time to deal with the problems and get the results right. I have protested all kinds of things and so have other riders. Rider cuts me off in a sprint, see a rider skip out on a lap or cut the course. Not just results. When does that happen? Right at the end of the race. Move on Anonymous sista

I was volunteering at the

I was volunteering at the finish and fixing those results in a fast time had nothing to do with the refs who deal with your 40th place photo finish protest, it was the race staff working with the timer who got it sorted. 10min, 5min, or a 1min gap wouldn't of mattered. Better question is who cuts a course in cross?

This is the best post all day

This is the best post all day. Boulder Cup didn't have prize money for cat 3's http://coloradocycling.org/sites/default/files/Site_Files/Race_Flyers/20... can't remember the last time I heard about trading places for money. If you're referring to SummerhillGate of Cyclo X Louisville 2012 that was an exchange for points. How about we focus on the amazing stories in the front range and all the people who make this cyclocross community awesome. There's plenty more of them than there are bad apples. I'm posting to keep this thread positive from all the debbie downers.

10 or 20 min between races

So is 20 minutes between races the answer? What race gets cut?

So you are basing your argument of an Eavesdropper that didn't put out a whole story? Eavesdropper = truth ??

If you want to move the discussion to time needed between races then go for it.

I guess I can use the eavesdropper data too.

So the 10 minutes between races is for admin stuff (results, callups, protests, bad riders). Stuff we have all complained about before.

What about all the mistakes with the women's race that day? They didn't know who was who till the end. Racers had to come by the Finish and tell them who was who.

I bet the was the promoter and race rite that caused that mix up. Wonder what the damage done was?

It sounds like you have the

It sounds like you have the same concern about the balance of value/cost, so I don't understand how I am missing the big picture. I didn't reference anything about the front racers vs. the back racers, as it seemed to me that the concern about the race duration was not unique to either of those groups. I agree with you that there is significant growth in our sport from the addition of new racers; certainly this is where all of us started at some point in time. At the same time, the dedicated and talented folks at the front of the races contribute long term consistency and value to our sport as well. In my initial post, I tried to make the point that it is in the interest of both the front and back end racers (and everyone in between) to work with promoters and officials to improve the value/cost ratio. If I am still missing the big picture, please feel free to find me this coming weekend for further discussion. You know my name ;)
Taylor Jung

I want my race to be nice and

I want my race to be nice and constant as yours. When laps are posted that is what I expect. I don't want surprises like lap changes of 3 to 1 or 2 to 0 without getting lapped.

I don't want to start 3 minutes behind a very fast field and get a lap chopped from my race immediately.

Look at WOL Xilinx were 70% of the 45+_4 were finished a lap down. Not because they were lapped, just time management I was told. That could have been easily your group last Saturday.

You need to step up you game if you are trying to be a spokesperson for "ALL Racers". Start advocating for the 45+4s as well. Not just a few buddies that didn't get to do another lap.

What is the answer.... stop putting two categories on the course at the same time, give them a set laps to do and let it play out.

45+/4 at WOL Xilinx

Exactly - 3/4 of the field were pulled after 4 laps, only the dozen or so within 1:15 of the leader after those 4 laps got a fifth lap. This was compounded by lack of communication that the race was 'over' for most of us. After the race the officials were telling us that they only pulled riders who were 6 minutes or more behind. Bet they are bemoaning the chip timing (that actually works!) which shows that was not the case.

Blow Back

"lack of communication that the race was 'over' for most of us."

How did you miss the lap card at 0 and TWO refs blowing whistles and yelling "The race is done". I didn't miss it.

The more you have a bad attitude with nothing constructive to say or help fix the worse off we will be.

I bet at the next race things will be tighten up on us racers. Pre-riding will get lots of attention. Mess that up = To bad your out. No chip = to bad. Foul language/bad mouthing = To Bad your out. Fights = arrest. You want special treatment = no time. Special request = rules/schedule trump that. Complaint = write you representative.

Again two waves is the

Again two waves is the problem. The second wave timing is relative to the first wave not itself.

Also, you can't complain about both side of the issue. Xilinx went long and stranglers got cut. Interlocken went short on the front and all racers got same amount of laps. Complaints all around.

How would you have done things? Obvious that Admin is wrestling with that and we aren't helping.

I have heard it a lot from officials "we have to end the race some time and get to the next". I got rule "4G" tossing my face too.

Being the slower rider I will say it again. I like knowing the laps from the start. Maybe that is to much of the MTB guy talking too. 4 laps, just get it done. Be fast or slow ride those 4 laps and finish.

55+/45+_4 race
Xilinx = every one got 36+ out of 40 min with most over 40. Sounds good.

Leader of the 55+ = 42.5 min out of 40 doing 8.5 min laps. One less lap would have been 34 min.

Leader of the 45+ = 43.25 min = 8.75 min laps. One less would have been 34.5 min.

Looks like a good candidate for a 4 lap race and not 5.

So the leader of the 45+_4 is 3.25 min behind the real race lead. Last of the 5 lap 45+_4 was 5 min behind the real race lead.

Rider 15 of the 45+_4 would have come in at 36.25 + 9.5 (5th lap) = 45.75. That is 5.5 behind the start of the race.

So 3 more riders might have been let through to meet your 6 min behind the leader. Is estimating how much you are going to fade and pedal soft on you last lap exact, no.

Looks like officials got close to that number. I love being devils advocate. It is so easy with hot headed anonymous posters. I win all the time.

One thing they could do is to

One thing they could do is to stop putting a time gap between the two groups. Stage the first group, then stage the next group separately, maybe 10-15 feet behind the first group. Start everyone at the same time, or may 15 or 20 seconds later, not 3 minutes later. Sure, the fast guys in the second group will catch the slow guys in the lead group sooner, but so what? The fast guys in the lead group will likely not catch nearly as many of the slower racers in the second group. Sure, the lapped riders still lose out, but there will be far less of them.

Riders need to take care of themselves and stop b*******.

Riders need to stand up in force. Two waves is the issue here and that needs to change. Tell the BRAC board. The promoters and officials are just doing as told from BRAC.

Riders also need to be responsible for themselves and police each other. Racers will not get what then need if the admin is responding to bad riders. Those dudes suck up time and resources from the rest of us.

Agree it was too short

People behaving rudely and the length of the race are separate issues. I think it's useful to discuss them that way. I strongly agree with the original comment and felt that my race was one lap too short.

I just cat'ed up voluntarily. No transferred points = no call-up. I got crushed at the start and was way, way back. I spent the entire race moving forward and just as I got back into the race it was over. I was really disappointed by that; my last lap was strong and I had a lot left in the tank. I found that supremely frustrating (to a degree, I felt like I had a workout rather than a race effort which is why I went out and raced again today).

On the positive side, I love that withoutlimits provides us with chipped races! Correlating those lap times to mistakes I made and how I felt out on the course has been a useful learning tool for me. Huge kudos to them for chipped races at a fair price. And I felt that the course was great as well. It was really fun. I had a giant smile during the pre-ride and noticed that other people did too. I've participated in two withoutlimits races and loved them both; but I do wish we could get that extra lap and I hope they see this thread and take that into consideration.

Also, as someone new to the sport and new to racing, I loved watching the SW Open race. It was a competitive race and a joy to watch. I learned a lot watching them work through the barrier section and other parts of the course. I wish I could have stayed for other races too.

It was another great weekend of racing, now it's time for ibuprofen, ice & beer.

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