2012 - Deer Trail Road Race

Name: Deer Trail Road Race p/b CyclingEvents.com
When: 05/06/2012
Where: County Roads around Deer Trail Colorado

Results

Racing: 

65 Comments

I saw some pretty aggressive

I saw some pretty aggressive racing out there today. If you are going to ride people into the ditch to get your guy a podium in a field sprint be prepared for equally aggressive consequences.

That is the nature of Deer Trail

That course cause bad intentions of the riders to be exposed. With the yellow line rule and skinny ass road with pretty flat course it is bound to happen and does every year. Maybe they should consider increasing the distance by about 50 miles to wear more riders out before the finish.

Yes

The racing was great in my group, still amazed of my lack of patience to sit in! Anyone know the actual distance of the early races? Quit using data during the race, the numbers scare me from trying to keep with the lead group.
Long Live road races with shorter than advertised distances :)

Ours ended up being no more

Ours ended up being no more than 35 miles, with selections only occurring due to guys getting gapped out after 5 U-turns. So I agree with other that bridge or no, it simply needs to be a longer race.

U gotta be kidding

Attacking after a crash is bad form, but almost as bad is attacking out of a u-turn. Everyone recognizes that it isn't possible for everyone to be at the very front for a u-turn and it's dangerous for too many to try. But, if you don't fight for a top 5 spot going into a u-turn, you stand a good chance of not making a selection that only exists because the course itself forced everyone to come to a standstill.

And, no, it's not the same as too many folks fighting for position in the last corner in a crit. The speeds in such a situation keeps things strung out somewhat, whereas in a u-turn you're guaranteed to have a huge logjam if everyone fights for the front.

One turn-around shouldn't be a deciding factor in a race, but at Deer Trail it seems to, far too often.

This race doesn't yield a winner, get someone who is lucky

I agree that the cone turnarounds are something that make this race less than fair. You have tight roads and a yellow line rule with large field sizes. This leads to dangerous riding and bad tactics; ie. attacking at the cone turnaround. Until they lengthen the race to reduce the size of the field late in the race and make a loop early in the race (as opposed to the cone turnaround), this race will be won by someone lining up early and gunning it at the cone.

I love RR's (and want more of them) but this one could surely use some improvement of the course.

how are the turnarounds any

how are the turnarounds any different from any other course feature that can break up the pack? At Koppenburg everyone fights to be the first up the hill because gaps form there. At Boulder Roubaix people try to stay near the front on the climbs so as not get gapped. in a crit like niwot people will fight to stay in front because the turns cause the group to stretch out and eventually snap.

you want to stay up front and be safe, get up front and drive the pace. our race was completely safe leading up to and coming out from the cones. enough distance from the cone enough of us had the balls to push the pace and string things out leading into it.

your argument is nonsensical. like somehow you got into the front of the group and just because people are supposed to let you sit there. it's a race not a group ride.

Well i mean every single one

Well i mean every single one of those things you mentioned is fun, and are actually a selling point of the event.

Turnarounds blow.

You know they blow or else swift would be all COME RACE DEER TRAIL AND ITS AWESOME WORLD FAMOUS TURNAROUNDS!!!!

dude (or dudette, as the case

dude (or dudette, as the case may be) if you don't understand my earlier argument about the fact that 180deg U-turns bring everyone more than a few places from the very front to a standstill while the ones on the front are drilling it, and this leads folks into doing stupid, dangerous stuff to get to the front at the last moment, I guess there's no point in trying to explain it further.

It is a race

Not every race can or should be a nice parade to the finish that ends in a field sprint. Certainly the turnarounds can have an impact on the outcome of the race but even with the shorter lengths, the race is not decided on the start line. It is about positioning and reading the race. Turnarounds are just part of that and in my experience, do not determine the winner. Perhaps the losers that constantly like to sit at the back everytime through.

N. Boulder has a similar effect as you exit the alley. It is strung out single file going through the start/finish yet still bunches up everytime around, resulting in significant numbers of DNF. Nothing unfair about that, it is racing.

Wow, "it's a race" that's

Wow, "it's a race" that's your best comeback? I'm glad you pointed that out, maybe there was 4 or 5 folks who didn't understand that already.

Srsly, let's take a poll, who prefers a loop w/ no 180s and who prefers a race with a bunch of out/back segments requiring 4 or 5 180deg u-turns?

I would prefer to have a team

I would prefer to have a team follow car with a spare bike and a team manager to hand up bottles but I dont. Everyone has to race the same race. If you arent satisfied with how you finished - train more and learn to read a race.

Then YOU put on a race that is a loop!!

Here is a good comeback, YOU put on a race that is a loop and no 180s!!! YOU spend your time getting permits (assuming you can get permits for a loop that isn't 2 hours away), YOU grovel to get enough volunteers, YOU be out there at 6am to get everything set up.
Otherwise, SHUT UP

Nothing constructive

There is nothing constructive in this pissing and moaning. Just self-absorbed bike racers who want everything the way they want it, without putting out the effort themselves. Swift cycling put in the time and energy to put on Deer Trail. If you don't like the course, don't go to the race--your opinion will be seen in numbers of entries. If you think you can do better, then put your effort where your mouth is and actually do something, like promote a race, not just bitch and complain because it wasn't the way you wanted it!

Did everyone just completely

Did everyone just completely miss the comment earlier that the issue isn't with Swift or the race course, but the racers who just to attack at an artificial, but unavoidable, chokepoint in the course?

Instead of defending Swift against criticisms that don't exist, why not address the issue presented by the earlier poster??

that is the point. racers

that is the point. racers attacking at a KNOWN artificial chokepoint IS part of racing. Everyone in the field knows it's there. It is no different than attacking a non-artificial chokepoint. If there's a part of a race that you know can be lost through positioning you need to fight for position. plain and simple. you can't fault your competitors for your own lack of abilities and will.

you remind me of the guys on group rides that get pissed every time they get spit out the back. like the group somehow has some sort of responsibility to ensure that you have a good ride at the expense of their own.

that is DEFINITELY NOT how racing works. If you want niceties then go ride a charity ride where you can boost your ego by passing all the people just there to see if they can make the distance.

Well my sense of

Well my sense of sportsmanship is to ensure that we keep the group together through the entire race. Let's ensure no one gets dropped because their feelings might get hurt and they might not show up the next time.

I really dislike the concept of teamwork in these races. It really isn't fair that others might disrupt the race so someone who isn't the strongest rider out there might end up crossing the line first. I would really like to tell all those knuckleheads that don't do their fair share of the work during the race that they have no right to try to cross the line first. That is even worse sportsmanship than attacking at a turnaround

if we are talking about

if we are talking about sportsmanship and protocol, then attacking in a feed zone and after someone crashes is bad form. you also forgot cases where a moto-ref (or any ref for that matter) has neutralized the field. that is also something I wouldn't do (but did happen in my race). attacking on ANY part of an open course is free game.

attacking at that cone is

attacking at that cone is good racing plain and simple - do you watch the last stage of the tour de france every single year when they do the full 180 degree turn down the champs?? The pack strings out for a quarter mile and guys organize before the turn and absolutely crush the pace soon as they get around the turn....man, talk about bad sportsmanship, they should just neutralize it so that everyone who is TOO WEAK to get to the front and TOO POOR OF A BIKE HANDLER to keep any speed through the turn can have a "fair" chance at staying in the group. This concept of 'sportsmanship' is taken SO far out into left field it is comical. If there is a crash in the middle-back of the field then please do attack. If you're in a race that has a yellow jersey (which you never will be) and the yellow goes down, then you should neutralize - I'm indifferent too feed zone attacking too. Generally speaking in 'your' race, you're riding 50-60 miles.. - if you can't stuff enough food for yourself in your pockets for a 2 hour race you have other problems to worry about. It is a race and you should be ready to be attacked on at any time, period.

Big difference between

Big difference between turning around a cone in a narrow two lane road and going around what is essentially two very close corners in a ver wide road. The turn you're referring to goes around a barrier that itself is as wide as the entire road at Deer Trail and the road coming into/ out of that turn is easily 4 lanes wide. They barely scrub any speed at all, compared to coming to a virtual standstill at Deer Trail. Not exactly a valid comparison to prove your point.

if there was a breakaway in

if there was a breakaway in your race, what would you expect them to do? Should they slow down and say "hey, those guys back there are all bunched up. we should slow our pace to match theirs"? Or should they take advantage of the course and their smaller sized group and go as fast as they can through the turnaround?

Personally, they should keep

Personally, they should keep racing. The point made earlier dealt with a comment regarding the sportsmanship of attacking after an entire group coming in to the turnaround together and all but the first 5 or so (okay, maybe 10) riders being forced to come to a stop. Continuing a breakaway or resuming the pace that existed prior to reaching the turnaround is different than riding into the turnaround as a field at 'cruise' tempo, then attacking while folks are bunched up.

If a field has a reputation of doing that sort of thing ( I assume that there are some that don't ) then it really encourages folks to do dumb stuff, like cutting the turn short or cutting people off while barging to the front to try to make the split

I doubt the people pissing

I doubt the people pissing and moaning could actually be consider bike racers. At best they're bikepathlete pack fodder who've had their feelings hurt because the 3-5 hour training weeks arent paying big dividends.

I've had a conversation with

I've had a conversation with a few folks on this very topic, and you may be surprised to know that one of them who falls into the "this isn't sporting" camp is a former national-level elite rider, multiple world champion title and world record holder, and current CO state champion. My 'resume' pales in comparison to his, but I've had my share of podium finishes and wins in 8 states over 20+ years of racing. I, too, find it pretty bush league. If the only way you can break a race apart is to attack while everyone from 5 places back is forced to come to a stop, well... what does that say about you?

funny. i had a similar

funny. i had a similar conversation with a past 7 time Tour De France Champion (I don't want to name names). And he thought the cones were the perfect place to attack. I have to say that after winning in 9 states over the past 30+ years of racing, that this has always been a common tactic. well... what does that say about you?

did you stick your neck out

did you stick your neck out there before the turns, ride in the wind for good position so that you could get to the front for the turns? or did you just sit in the whole time and are complaining that the guys that did the work and took some risk were actually rewarded for it?

The point is, no matter how

The point is, no matter how long or how hard you ride at the front before the tight 180 turns at Deer Trail, you're going to come to a crawl unless you're in the first 3 or 4 riders. While you're doing that, everyone else is stacking up behind you with some folks cutting the turn, others taking stupid risks to move up, all because they know they have to or get caught on the wrong side of a split.

It makes for dangerous racing, which could easily be avoided either through better course design or a gentlemen's agreement. Attacking out of a 180 deg turn is on par, if not worse, than attacking in a feed zone.

This is ridiculous. So those

This is ridiculous. So those on the front taking on wind on the straights should wait for the wheel suckers after the corners. That's fair. Getting to the front before potential attack spots is basic bike racing.

If you double the mileage,

If you double the mileage, you end up with that many more turnarounds. If you don't like 3 or 4, I guess I don't understand the logic that running more laps and making 6 or 8 turnaorunds solves these problems. If you can't hang in there for the first 4, you won't be there for the next 4.

IT's a race!

If you don't like the course, then don't go to the race! It is the same course they have used for years, and it is described on the flyer.
Otherwise, thank the promoters for putting on a race that you can enter if you want. Trust me, the amount of time away from riding that it takes to put on a race isn't worth listening to all you bitching.

your comment doesn't make any

your comment doesn't make any sense. the turnarounds were more or less laid out as advertised. the distance of the course was not, but that is separate.

you knew you were going there to ride a course with 180-degree turnarounds. If you didn't like that feature of the course, then you shouldn't have raced.

i don't mind the turnarounds at all and think they're a great feature to create decisive moments in the race.

now that you know you don't like turnarounds, don't do that race again. it's probably the same reason you won't do prospect or n. boulder park, but have no problems going to race WOT. I like the opposite kind of race from you. I prefer ones where the course features force you to take good position and it's not a matter of sitting in until the final sprint. to each their own. but that is why I raced deer trail last week and have no intention of racing WOT this weekend. sprint finishes where the whole field can contest don't interest me all that much.

that is why I was highly disappointed that the race was shortened. I wanted more turnarounds and more hills to break things up more before the finish. to me, that was a last minute change that occurred on race day with no real good reason. we could have easily raced the whole course for 3 laps and gotten in the correct mileage. I would have much rather gone 5 over than 15 under.

based on the last minute changes, I know that I will no longer be doing any races promoted by swift. there are plenty of other races on the calendar that i'm more than happy to spend my money on.

Needs more turnarounds..

you got that right!

we should just start holding long road races on 2 miles stretches of roads so we can have like 30 turnarounds in one race.

be cheaper too.

my god this is such a eureka moment.

For the record, wasn't

For the record, wasn't bitching about the course. Rather, I was commenting on the unsportsmanlike behavior of attacking out of a turnaround to gain an automatic advantage over those who chose not to recklessly fight you for the third spot at the turn.

I have no beef with the promoter.

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